A brother asked me to read and reply to an article attacking the mid-Acts Pauline doctrine I attempt to explain on this website. Here is a link to it in its entirety from the website “GotQuestions.org”. I will go over it line by line hopefully demonstrating, with contextual rightly divided scripture, its failure and inconsistencies. This is a long but not exhaustive post. I encourage any who have specific questions to post them here or on the “Got Bible Questions” page for direct answers. Quotations in italics are taken directly from the article.
What is mid-Acts dispensationalism?
First sentence… “Dispensationalism is a theological system that recognizes various ages, or dispensations, ordained by God to order the affairs of the world.” Okay, so far so good, I can work with that. The word dispensation is used four times in the Bible (King James only of course – I wonder why?) all in the epistles of Paul (1 Corinthians 9:17, Ephesians 1:10, Ephesians 3:2, Colossians 1:25). Each time it is used, with one exception, Paul is speaking of something given specifically to him. The one exception is in reference to a future dispensation; that of “the fullness of times”. The other three directly reference some “good news” committed unto him by God. A “gospel” in Biblical terms; for the word gospel simply means good news or “joyful message” according to Webster’s 1828 dictionary.
The word dispensation also carries with it the idea of a transfer of one thing to another. A dispensary is a place or store where medicine and medical advise is given (dispensed) for free. God therefore has given Paul a joyful message that was, prior to Paul’s knowledge of it (simple logic) unknown. It was a “mystery”, a secret hid in God until the “mystery” was revealed to Paul.
Ephesians 3:3-4… “How that by revelation he made known unto ME the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)“
Galatians 1:11-12… “But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.“
Also indicated is an aspect of time as well as “change” of some sort. The dispensation of the fullness of times clearly refers to a point in time somewhere in the future. The words “but now” (as we shall see) also directly indicate a change (of something) over time. Simple example; I used to be in my 40’s but now am in my 50’s. My own age changed over time. Back to the article…
“Classic dispensationalism sees seven dispensations, starting with the age of innocence in the Garden of Eden and ending with the age of the millennial kingdom.” I’m not going to argue how many dispensations may or may not be. Perhaps in a future post. Suffice to say that we mid-Acts believers do see separate and distinct dispensations in the Bible where God dealt with man in a certain specific way in time and then deals with us in a different way; the author argues this position to be false. Using the above definition of dispensation and a little basic logic let’s look at a scriptural example.
Romans 3:20-21… “Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. BUT NOW the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;“
Examining this verse we can see a change taking place. Whereas at one point in time some people (Israel) were required to follow Gods Law to achieve righteousness in His sight… “BUT NOW” (somehow) Gods righteousness is made available without the law. Something changed over time. In the past the nation Israel was required to keep the law. The old covenant IS law keeping via human effort. God the Father taught it to the Israelites who struggled mightily with it; Jesus Christ in the 4 accounts of His earthly ministry taught it to the 12 apostles. The believing Jews were doing it (supernaturally empowered) in the book of Acts (the New Testament actualized). The words Paul writes however (unless one is willfully ignorant or using corrupt “bible” translations) state clearly that Gods righteousness is NOW available without law keeping; and, that the law itself and the prophets that substantiated it were themselves witness to the change in terms.
Back to the article… “The current age, called the age of grace or the church age, is held by most dispensationalists to have begun in Acts 2 on the Day of Pentecost. At that time, the Holy Spirit came upon the believers and empowered them to fulfill the Great Commission, the church age began.” There are many “Acts 2” dispensationalists. C. I. Scofield is likely the most famous due to the “reference Bible” he annotated. Here is where mid-Acts begin to break away from the Acts 2 position. See also my response to James Perloff regarding his issues with the Scofield Bible. Author continues… “However, mid-Acts dispensationalism sees that event as still part of the dispensation of Law; the “church” in the first part of Acts was a Jewish congregation under Jewish rules, not the church of the church age. According to mid-Acts dispensationalism, the church began with the ministry of the apostle Paul in either Acts 9 (Paul’s conversion) or Acts 13 (Paul’s first missionary journey).“
This is a fair representation of the mid-Acts position (Acts 9 makes sense to this believer as Paul “straightway” preached Christ in the synagogues – Acts 9:20). Pentecost is first and foremost a Jewish holy day. Webster’s 1828… 1) “A solemn festival of the Jews, so called because celebrated on the fiftieth day after the 16’th of Nisan, which was the second day of the passover. It was called the feast of weeks, because it was celebrated seven weeks after the passover. It was instituted to oblige the people to repair to the temple of the Lord to acknowledge His absolute dominion over the country, and offer Him the first fruits of their harvest; also that they might call to mind and give thanks to God for the law which He had given them at Sinai on the fiftieth day of their departure from Egypt.” 2) “Whitsuntide, a solemn feast of the church, held in commemoration of the decent of the Holy Spirit on the Apostles (Acts 2).”
One has to wonder where “whitsuntide” found its origins because it is certainly not located in the Bible. I found this online… “First recorded in 1175, Whitsuntide is from the Middle English word whitsone(n)tide.” “The seventh Sunday after Easter.” “Easter celebrated on the first Sunday after the full moon that occurs on or just after the vernal equinox.” Because we all know that’s “precisely” when Jesus was resurrected… the first Sunday after the first full moon past the spring equinox. Yea, right…
Looking at Webster’s second definition, it seems as if our religionist friends have once again created a compilation of Jewish plus pagan ritual to construct some amalgam they deem “Christianity”. A “solemn feast of the church”… which church would that be? It can only be Jewish if one is to believe the Bible. Who is our audience in Acts 2? Who is Peter addressing?
Acts 2:5… “And there were dwelling at Jerusalem JEWS, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.“
Acts 2:14… “But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:“
Our audience is clearly made of Jewish men of every nationality. Not to get way off track chasing “holiday” rabbits but it is apparent that anything which is occurring in Acts chapter 2 has everything to do with Jewishness and not what many today call Christianity. Jews recognized the prophesied Jewish Messiah. Therefore the “Acts 2 dispensational” position has serious problems from the very beginning if it wants to include the Jerusalem church in the body of Christ. These “Kingdom saints” have as yet unfulfilled prophesy to fulfill. They cannot be members of the church which is His body; they belong to the earthly Kingdom yet to come. There are also no holy days according to the mid-Acts perspective. Why would a non-Jew include himself in such activity? Paul is clear on these things.
Colossians 2:16-17… “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.“
Author writes… “Classical dispensationalism sees a biblical distinction between Israel and the church; mid-Acts dispensationalism takes it further, separating the Jewish congregation in Acts 1—8 from the Gentile church (the body of Christ) from then on.“
The distinction “classical dispensationalism” makes is that it transforms the Jewish believers into something other than Jewish (this is what pentecostal types call Christianity). That Peter and the 11 (and all the Jews with them) upon believing in Jesus left their Jewish religion and were “converted” to “Christianity”. There is no Biblical basis whatsoever for believing this. These were clearly Jewish men waiting for and finding their Jewish Messiah who showed up at exactly the prophesied time according to the book of Daniel. Clearly there is a difference between Israel and the church, but there is no difference between Israel and the Jerusalem church as the Jerusalem church WAS (believing) Israel. That church (called out assembly) which Jesus called “the little flock” (Luke 12:32). Clearly there is a Jewish church taking care of religious business in the Jewish temple; Peter preaches a murder indictment to them and compels them to repent of their evil deed (Acts 2:22-24, and 37-38). What makes people today (Acts 2 dispensationalists, pentecostals, methodists, baptists, catholics, etc…) think that these men “changed religions” rather than remaining true to their Jewish roots? Examine this scene in the latter chapters of Acts where Paul and James are speaking.
Acts 21:18-21… “And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.”
These men are still zealous of the law, walking after the “customs”; another word for customs is “traditions” and there’s a ton of trouble waiting in the wings of tradition as tradition remains for its own sake, not necessarily that of realities sake. If the church the body of Christ began in Acts 2, where is salvation by grace alone through faith alone in the shed blood of Christ alone? These thousands of believers, James included are following the law! Mid-Acts does indeed “take it further” and rightly separates out that which took place in Jerusalem from that which took place with Paul on the road to Damascus. Paul was hunting these Jewish believers in Christ down to capture and kill them. Paul is the one who scattered the multitudes from Jerusalem; but the apostles remained faithful to what Christ commanded and stayed in Jerusalem. Paul is the one who winds up going out into the world of heathen like me preaching NOT the Kingdom at hand as the 12 were commanded (Matthew 24:14), but the gospel of the grace of God (Acts 20:24)!
Author writes… “According to mid-Acts dispensationalism or the Grace Movement, the apostles Peter, James, John, and the rest were still operating under the Old Covenant in Acts 1—8.” This statement is flat out wrong. The apostles were operating under the New Covenant/Testament. The OT says man must obey the law to gain righteousness with God. Didn’t work out so well for man. The NT says that God will put His Spirit within the believer and CAUSE him to be able to follow the law (Jeremiah 31:31-34, Ezekiel 36:26-27, and Hebrews 8:7-11). The author makes the grave mistake of assuming that there is either the OT or the NT in effect at any given time. He misses completely the mystery given to Paul which in essence is NO TESTAMENT whatsoever. The essential nature of grace alone through faith alone is that there are no covenant agreements between man and God at all. Grace is a freely offered gift which men can either freely accept or reject. The mid-Acts position recognizes the “mystery” time period (hidden wisdom – that which was unknown before Paul) between old and new testaments. The OT came to an end, the NT began to happen in early Acts. What the NT’s continuation was dependent upon is ALL Israel recognizing their Messiah which they failed to do; thus was the full implementation of the NT suspended. They were to be a nation of priests to the rest of the world (Exodus 19:5-6). Instead they killed their Messiah (Emmanuel – God in flesh) and God set the nation (temporarily) aside in order to do something new with Paul. But now…
Author writes… “They were still dutifully keeping the Law and still meeting as a Jewish body in Jerusalem. Peter and the other apostles preached repentance to Israel, but there was no church until Paul.” Though the author believes this to be fallacy, this is absolutely correct. God empowered them to keep the law and to perform miracles and they remained with the circumcision (the Jews) in Jerusalem (Galatians 2:7-9). They were a “church” but they were not the church, the body of Christ. A church is a called out assembly of people. Called out for what purpose? The Jerusalem church was called out to administer Gods earthly Kingdom. The church which is His body is called out to take up positions in heavenly places (Ephesians 1:3).
He continues… “It was Paul, the “apostle to the Gentiles” (Romans 11:13), to whom the doctrine of the church—and the doctrine of grace—was revealed. It was only after Paul began to minister that the church actually began.” And that is exactly correct. So why does he believe this to be incorrect? His next statement follows the old vs. new testament confusion. “Thus, the only parts of the New Testament that are applicable to believers today are the Pauline Epistles. The rest of the Bible was written for Israel.” While it’s true Paul’s epistles are instructions for today’s church while the Hebrew epistles are not; and yes, both at the same time ALL the Bible (all scripture – 2 Timothy 3:16) is for our learning. The critical mistake the author makes here is that he divides the Bible where Bible publishers divide it, not where God divides it. The Pauline epistles are “No Testament” books. The New Testament does NOT begin in Matthew chapter 1 where Jesus is “born”. It begins with the death of the testator, ends in Acts 28:28 and picks up again post “rapture” (when God eventually rescinds His offer of free grace) in the book of Hebrews…
Hebrews 9:16-17… “For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.“
…and the testator, Jesus Christ does not die until the end of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. When the author claims that the only parts of the NT “section” of the Bible which are for todays church are the Pauline epistles he is correctly identifying the mid-Acts position; but he wrongly believes the NT begins where publishing companies (including those who publish KJB’s) say it does. There is a page in every Bible after Malachi and before Matthew which in bold letters reads New Testament. THAT IS WRONG. A gross oversimplification at least. A satanic deception at worst.
Author makes broad and unsubstantiated claims here I’d encourage any to follow up with challenges. “There are some other problems with mid-Acts dispensationalism. In particular, its views on salvation, water baptism, and the church’s origin are based on misunderstandings of some points of Scripture.” And what might these problems be? Please demonstrate what exactly it is I am misunderstanding. Scripture please.
- Salvation – trust in the shed blood of Jesus Christ as complete and total payment for sin. See Simple Salvation.
- Water baptism – ritual cleansing for Jewish priests before entering into priestly duties. Spend some time “here“.
- Churches origin – Paul. 1 Tim 1:15-16… “This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.”
The article states… “Mid-Acts dispensationalism wrongly assumes that Paul’s revelation about the church equals the beginning of the church itself.” Recall how we defined a dispensation please. If what God told Paul about the mystery church had never before been revealed; had it been a secret hid in God since the beginning of the world (it was), how could this NOT be the beginning of something new? The nature of a mystery is that no one knows it. It is a secret. It is hidden… until the secret is revealed; in this case, until God revealed the contents of it to Paul. Recall the words BUT NOW… is the author mindless or perhaps just agenda driven?
1 Corinthians 2:7-8… “But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, EVEN THE HIDDEN WISDOM, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.“
Col 1:25-26… “Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the MYSTERY WHICH HATH BEEN HID from ages and from generations, BUT NOW is made manifest to his saints:“
Romans 16:25-27… “Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, BUT NOW is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.”
It gets better… “Mid-Acts dispensationalism misinterprets Galatians 2:7, “I [Paul] had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised.”“
It’s actually the authors perverted bible which does the disservice here. The KJB reads crystal clear.
Galatians 2:7… “But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;“
A single distorted etherial unidentifiable “gospel” in the former. Two clearly different gospel messages to two different groups of people in the later. “Things that are different cannot be the same.” This is why the King James only issue is so critical and so fiercely opposed by so many. The truth is deliberately obscured in “modern” bible versions and expounded perfectly clearly in the KJB. The last thing in the world satan wants a man to know is the mystery revealed to Paul because it demonstrates satan’s utter downfall and Gods perfect manifold wisdom.
Colossians 2:15… “And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.“
Ephesians 3:9-12… “And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, WHICH FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD HATH BEEN HID in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: TO THE INTENT THAT NOW UNTO THE PRINCIPALITIES AND POWERS IN HEAVENLY PLACES MIGHT BE KNOWN BY THE CHURCH THE MANIFOLD WISDOM OF GOD According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.“
“The mid-Acts dispensationalist makes a distinction between a “gospel of circumcision,” taught by Peter, and a “gospel of uncircumcision,” taught by Paul. In reality, Paul is referring to different audiences, not different gospels.“
We do make the distinction because the Bible makes the distinction. Your “bible” distorts it. Get a copy of Gods Word and study it. You might learn something satan does not want you to know. Something that will alter your understanding of everything.
“The Jews whom Peter ministered to were saved by grace through faith, just as the Gentiles to whom Paul ministered.“
Is that why they were still zealous of the law in Acts 21??? Come on man… All are saved by grace through faith but some (the Jews) have works accompanying that faith. What is a covenant at all? It is an if/then contract entered into by two or more parties. If you do “A”, then I’ll do “B”. OT and NT in a nutshell. Grace alone through faith alone by the blood alone is exactly NOT an if/then covenant agreement. It is a gift!
“Mid-Acts dispensationalism or the Grace Movement denies the need for water baptism for believers, thus ignoring Jesus’ command in Matthew 28:19.“
Exactly, we do deny the need because Jesus was teaching the law to priestly Israel in Matthew 28-19. The mystery had not yet been revealed to Paul. Some very special abilities follow that water baptism in this time period.
Mark 16:15-18… “And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.” Did the author acquire such abilities after his water baptism? Show me a man that has and I’ll show you a liar.
Just above, author states that Jews were saved by grace through faith just as believers are today. Then why is baptism required? That is a work a man might boast in (Ephesians 2:8-9). They were only to go to the rest of the world AFTER they finished up in their own backyard! There is an order to be followed. Jerusalem first as they were a nation of priests!
Acts 1:8… “But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.“
Examine Pater’s own words… the final written record of his speaking in the book of Acts.
Acts 15:11… “But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.” Shall be… Peter is expecting salvation to come in the future which makes perfect sense when we read about “enduring to the end” (Matthew 24:13) and hoping to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you” (1 Peter 1:13). Israel’s national salvation is a future occurrence (Acts 3:19-21).
“They exclude water baptism on the basis that the baptism of the Spirit, which occurs at salvation, has replaced water baptism.“
Exactly, and here is why. We are not priests that require cleansing. Christ’s shed blood has made me clean! How can water possibly compare?
Ephesians 4:5… “One Lord, one faith, ONE baptism,“
Which would ANYONE prefer, water or Holy Spirit? I’ll stay dry thank you very much and thank God He does the baptizing for me. You religionists keep your water baptism. Better yet, follow Paul as Christ commands.
1 Corinthians 1:17… “For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.” God the Father sent John the Baptist to water baptize; Christ did send forth Peter and the 11 to water baptize (prepare) a nation of priests. Even though Paul water baptized a few, that was not his specific commission as the above verse clearly states.
“Mid-Acts dispensationalism overlooks the fact that Gentiles were part of the early church before Paul was converted. Acts 2:10–11 makes it clear that the crowd listening to Peter preach on the Day of Pentecost included Gentile proselytes to Judaism.“
We overlook nothing. A Gentile who converts to Judaism becomes what exactly? How about (wait for it, here it comes…) he becomes a Jew. Therefore Peter was preaching to JEWS in the JEWISH TEMPLE.
“And Acts 8 shows how Samaritans and an Ethiopian were baptized into Christ before Paul ever started preaching the doctrine of the church or of grace.“
Many people were “in Christ” before Christ began the mystery church with Paul. People can be “in Christ” according to prophecy, as the Jews were; or we can be “in Christ” via the mystery as Paul (our pattern) and anyone who hereafter believed was. There are two overarching programs both of which are “in Christ” in effect. Gods earthly program involving the nation Israel and the Gentile nations who bless them; and His heavenly program which involves the church which is His body. Both the heaven and the earth are fallen. Both require redemption “in Christ”. God has both fully under control.
“Thus there was a joint church body of Jews and Gentiles before Paul began his ministry.“
This is accurate but misleading as the author simply want to mash all the people together under one unspecified mish-mash “gospel”. Any Gentiles who either became Jews or pledged allegiance to Israel according to Gods prophetic instruction could be included in this church. There were a few. This does not mean the Jerusalem church and the body are all the same church. It isn’t. Jerusalem was a church with a different purpose than the church of believers which exist today. They had super powers… we do not. They had those powers in order to enable them to endure to the end of the great tribulation. They are going to need them; things are going to get really ugly.
Genesis 12:1-3… “Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will shew thee: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: AND I WILL BLESS THEM THAT BLESS THEE, AND CURSE HIM THAT CURSETH THEE: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.“
Cornelius in Acts 10 would be the best example of such a one. He blessed the nation by giving much alms to the people and prayed to God alway. He understood his position under the nation Israel as did the samaritan women that Jesus called a dog (Mat 15:22-28). She too understood her place beneath Israel and the Lord blessed her accordingly.
“Most importantly, mid-Acts dispensationalism or the Grace Movement claims there are “different gospels,” one taught by Peter and one taught by Paul. But the Old Testament (and the first part of the New Testament) does not teach salvation by works; the Jews in Galilee were not saved a different way from the Gentiles in Achaia.“
There are many different gospels in the Bible. Abraham has one referencing Genesis 12 in Galatians 3:8. Your “bible” intentionally obscures them that you (author) misunderstand that which satan least of all wants you to understand… the mystery revealed to Paul. To say that the OT does not teach salvation with works is beyond ignorant. It is dishonest. There was 600 plus points of the law to keep and sacrifices to be made if one failed. At the end of the day, this author is not a Bible believer. He’s not even all that bright. He’s an agenda driven religionist who wants people to keep paying tithes to a priest class he himself supports. Religion is just another way for man to control other men.
Galatians 5:1… “Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.“
Christ died to free us from the law instituted to prove to man that he is a hopeless sinner who can’t possibly keep it. There is nothing a man can do to earn his salvation. Not baptism, not law keeping, not praying certain prayers, not anything. Such an article demonstrates beyond doubt that we all need to study the right Bible rightly divided or confusion at least, damnation at worst, will be the result.
“Mid-Acts dispensationalism is opposed to several elements of orthodoxy.“
We are opposed to all of “orthodox religion” actually. We simply believe what the Bible says, to whom it says it. Bible Christianity is the 100% absence of religion… religion defined as that which a man does to either please God or assuage His anger.
“Its downplaying of half of the New Testament, its unwarranted exclusion of early Jewish believers from the body of Christ, its disregard of water baptism, and its allowance for a faith-plus-works gospel make the Grace Movement an unbiblical view.“
Not downplaying as all scripture is for our learning, merely identifying to whom it was written. For example, who was James writing to?
James 1:1… “James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, TO THE TWELVE TRIBES WHICH ARE SCATTERED ABROAD, greeting.“
I assume the author is not a member of a Jewish tribe scattered by Paul. The early Jewish believers have their own prophesies and an earthly program which yet remain unfulfilled. They have no business in the heavenly church which is His body. We have Gods specific promises to us and they have the specific promises God made to them. We need to learn the difference between the two. That most people do not know the difference is why there are so many “Christian” denominations and such Biblical confusion in the world.
Matthew 19:28… “And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.“
The twelve Jewish apostles to the twelve Jewish tribes of Israel will sit on twelve Jewish thrones in the New Jewish Jerusalem come from heaven to earth, judging those same twelve Jewish tribes who collectively will be the worlds priest class at some point in history’s future. Today’s believers go to heaven to be with the Lord (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18). Heaven comes to earth “as it is in heaven” to Israel in the future.
We absolutely disregard water baptism as either an aspect of works based salvation or a means of glorifying the flesh which Christ has spiritually crucified (Galatians 2:20, and 6:13). And finally, to say that we allow for works based salvation is just plain idiotic and dishonest when everything we actually say is counter to exactly that. I will leave works based salvation to those the author would prefer we listen to: Jesus, James, Peter and John…
Luke 18:18-22… “And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother. And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up. Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.” Jesus preaches commandment keeping and He commands the wealthy man to sell all that he has and distribute to the poor. Does author “follow Christ” by commandment keeping and willful poverty? I thought not…
James 2:24… “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.” Paul says the exact opposite in Romans 4:1-5 establishing the mid-Acts position of grace through faith WITHOUT works. Author should re-check his own work and his own thoughts.
1 Peter 1:13… “Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;” Read that one again. The grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. That’s a future event. Mid-Acts teaches that we have that grace now – without works or endurance till the end (Romans 5:11).
1 Peter 2:12… “Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, THEY MAY BY YOUR GOOD WORKS, GLORIFY GOD IN THE DAY OF VISITATION.” In the body of Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile (Galatians 3:28). Why is Peter speaking to Gentiles? Perhaps it is because he is a JEW. Why do they do good works? That the Gentiles might glorify God through them.
2 Peter 2:20-21… “For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.” Does that sound remotely like the condition-less eternal salvation mid-Acts teaches? We are COMPLETE in Christ, needing nothing else (Colossians 2:9-10). He did it all for us. We are tangled up in an evil world, and Christ has delivered us from it (Galatians 1:4).
1 John 1:7… “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” IF we walk… that is a conditional statement and thus implies works. In this case “walking in the light”. For, IF we fail to walk in the light, THEN darkness awaits, as we are not cleansed from sin. That is works based salvation.
1 John 2:3… “And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.” What else does John need to say to complete my argument? Author simply desires to make the mid-Acts position look bad and by doing so, only demonstrates his own ignorance of scripture.
I will close this very long yet still not exhaustive post with two last verses. The first is a verse of warning, the second of admonition. I warn you of Bible teachers in general, myself included though I hope to be helpful. It is you dear reader who must be persuaded in your own mind what is truth (Romans 14:5). No one will stand before God in your place. He wrote a book for each and every person to read and comprehend. Not one of us should listen exclusively to what any man says the Bible says. We need to open the book and let it read us while we read it. Bible study is interaction with the living Holy Spirit of God. That’s as monumental as it gets in this world.
Colossians 2:8… “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.”
2 Timothy 2:15… “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.“
21 thoughts on “Doctrinal Attacks Answered.”
Pow Pow Pastor.
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About as subtle as the .410 pistol I pack, huh… 😉
Appreciate your reading!
The Jews whom Peter ministered to were saved by grace through faith, just as the Gentiles to whom Paul ministered.“
Bull! This man is a liar:
Acts 2:38 KJV
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
That is faith AND a work!
We receive remission of sins TODAY thru faith in Christ’s blood:
Romans 3:25 KJV
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Amen Jen…! Well thought out scriptural reply.
Great post, Pastor. Challenge accepted indeed!
A follow-up (simple) question for you (wondering how you would answer this question and hoping that many will be edified through your answer) –
If 1 Thes 4:17 states: “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
Why would a Christian NOT believe that we are going to return with Christ, as part of His army, as described in Rev 19:14? 1 Thes 4:17 indicates “so shall we ever be with the Lord” – would that not include His Second Coming?
I’m certain I am not the first to pose this question to you. Looking forward to your insight and reference verses.
Grace and peace!
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Great suggestion to tackle such an article in the first place David. Appreciate you setting the challenge!
You write… “Why would a Christian NOT believe that we are going to return with Christ, as part of His army, as described in Rev 19:14? 1 Thes 4:17 indicates “so shall we ever be with the Lord” – would that not include His Second Coming?”
Another very good question. I think the answer is kind of deceptively simple. Christ, in His prophesied second coming, is going to conquer the human kingdoms of this world in order to set up His Godly Kingdom. Key word here is prophesied. There is also a first and second “mystery” coming. First to Paul, second for His body. At neither occurrence will He be “physically” present here on the earth. My return question… what do we, as the mystery body of Christ, have to do with prophesy? Answer: absolutely nothing.
Colossians 3:1-3… “If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.”
We are dead to the earthly things promised to Israel. The only interaction we have with earthly things is to be ambassadors of heavenly things.
Revelation 19:14… “And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.”
Are these even “human” armies?
Matthew 13:49-50… “So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”
Matthew 25:31… “When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:”
Man, I’m glad I ain’t gonna be around to see this! Make Sodom and Gomorrah look like a house party. Considering the second part of your question, the clearest “rapture” verse in scripture:
1 Thessalonians 4:17… “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
When God is finished with this dispensation of grace and peace, it will be judgement and war for the world. As Gods wrath has already been satisfied in us via Christ’s crucifixion, we escape the judgement that is to come. He calls His ambassadors of grace and peace home as our function will no longer be necessary. We meet Christ in the air, pass through His judgement of what we did in His body while here (1 Cor 3, 2 Cor 5:10), gratefully accept whatever rewards (or lack thereof) we are presented with and take up our duties in heavenly places (Eph 1:3). As the bodies Head is currently in those heavenly places and the rest (us) remain here; the situation will simply shift. The Head (Christ) will rule and reign for 1,000 years here on earth while His body (us) are with the Lord (Father, Holy Spirit) in heaven. Omnipresence comes in handy… 🙂
When those 1,000 years are up, all the saints, both mystery and prophetic, have the dispensation of the fullness of times to look forward to; and what happens after that is anyones guess but I am sure whatever God decides to do with His creation “next” will be amazing far beyond our ability to comprehend.
Ephesians 1:10… “That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:”
Perfected existence with our Perfect Creator!
Press on David, grace and peace to you and yours;
PS. The Bible conference in Round Rock Texas for 2019 is scheduled on April 12-14. Contact Steve Gotberg for details at http://www.butnow.info I hope to be able to meet you there!
Hey, David! May I add to the pastor’s response. Simply put, Paul states that our conversation is in heaven, not heaven and earth::
Philippians 3:20 KJV
For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Thank you for the great response, Pastor. Wonderful to tie together Rev 19:14 with Mt 13:49-50 and Mt 25:31. I’ve made the note in my Bible… 🙂
A follow-up question, if I may. You stated the following and I just want to gain more clarity on it (yes, a “babe-in-Christ” question):
“There is also a first and second “mystery” coming. First to Paul, second for His body. At neither occurrence will He be “physically” present here on the earth.”
With the short amount of time that I have been studying M.A.D., if asked, I would have stated that the “mystery’s” in Scripture (something not revealed in the OT, but now is being made known) would be the following:
1. The Church (revealed first to Paul)
2. The Rapture of the Church (an imminent event where Christ returns for His body)
3. Mystery Bablyon (not a concern for the Church, but an interesting topic for Eschatology buffs and appears to indicate that the Antichrist’s HQ during the future Tribulation period will not be the literal city of Babylon that we read about in the OT, but will be a city much like it, in that general region, and it will not be revealed until Daniel’s 70th Week – perhaps Mecca or Dubai, etc.).
So back to your statement – “There is also a first and second “mystery” coming. First to Paul, second for His body.”
Am I being thrown off by your use of the word “coming”? The first “mystery” is the Church (it is here). The second “mystery,” as you state (for His body) is the Rapture of the Church (a future event that is indeed coming).
Where am I off inside of this “mystery” subject?
Thoroughly enjoying everything you are teaching me!
I see where my word choice might have been better but overall, you are correct. When I say a first and second “mystery coming” what I mean is (and these are my own terms of course) that Christ’s first “mystery” coming was when He appeared to Paul. Contrast that to when He was “born” physically to Israel. Christ’s second “mystery” coming is when He appears in the clouds and we meet Him in the air at the body’s translation. Contrast that to His physical return to earth in judgement. In neither “mystery appearance” does He physically manifest Himself on earth as He did (and will do) in the prophetic program. Thus there is a physical first and second coming and a “mystery” first and second coming.
For an interesting exercise in study, locate and examine each time Paul uses the word mystery in scripture. There is a lot of mystery in the mystery kept secret since the world began! All of it now revealed through Paul, of course… God gave the “why” of everything to Paul!
I greatly enjoy your questions David 🙂
Well done. Here is my own critique of the Got Questions article. (I’ve found GotQuestions to be “the place to go for the standard evangelical answer.” If you want a Biblical answer, go elsewhere. https://youtu.be/zm_jvu9ryoI
Thank you Randy. You’re right about that Got Questions site. Thank you for posting the video! We have met a very nice family here in Texas who speak very highly of you… 🙂
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“My return question… what do we, as the mystery body of Christ, have to do with prophesy? Answer: absolutely nothing.”
And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
annuit coeptis novus ordo seclorum- ……..??…….
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Sir ordo… The testimony of Jesus through 95% of the Bible is the spirit of prophesy. The testimony of Jesus via Paul is the spirit of mystery. Prophesy = past and future. Mystery = present. The body of Christ is found nowhere in the book of Revelation, nor in the Hebrew epistles. Where we see Jew and Gentile, we are dealing with Gods prophetic program. Where we see neither Jew nor Gentile (Pauls 13 epistles), we are dealing with Gods mystery program.
Nor do we worship angels as they are created beings like us… superior to us, but created and thus not to be worshiped.
Col 2:18… “Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,”
“Nor do we worship angels as they are created beings like us… superior to us, but created and thus not to be worshiped”
Who said anything about “worshipping” angels??
annuit coeptis novus ordo seclorum- Again, I do not necessarily disagree with you, at least to the point of Salvation- but there is a plenary ‘mystery’ that does NOT take anything from what you say, but a full understanding will equip one to notice the critical point in time we find ourselves in. In addition, without the plenary, what would you tell a young person who believes in UFOs/aliens? Or, one who comes to you asking if it’s wrong to have your DNA altered for sports; or to integrate computer technology in the firing synapsis to ‘become smarter; or to prolong life; or ?????
the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
“O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor”
Thanks, brother- I’ll be back !
GCP replies… I look forward to it!
“Who said anything about “worshipping” angels??”
I thought by your Revelation quote that you might have been. Just trying to cover all bases. My misunderstanding…
“without the plenary, what would you tell a young person who believes in UFOs/aliens?”
What’s the “plenary” you speak of if it’s not Gods completed word? I’d tell a young or old person that UFO’s and “aliens” are absolutely real, but not what they have been led to believe. They are the fallen angels. They have been interbreeding with humans since the beginning in order to screw up Gods creation and remake it in their own image.
“Or, one who comes to you asking if it’s wrong to have your DNA altered for sports; or to integrate computer technology in the firing synapsis to ‘become smarter; or to prolong life; or ????? ”
I’d say, don’t do it, for by doing it you’re becoming something other than human; something other than what God intended. You quote Romans 11:33-34, I love it! In the verse previous Paul writes:
Rom 11:32… “For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all.”
Israel brought low, down to the already “given up” Gentiles (Rom 1:24-28). No more “chosen nation”. A beautiful thing; wisdom and knowledge hidden in God from before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4), unprophesied and therefore unsearchable in the scriptures until God revealed it to Paul and Paul wrote it down for us to read. The mystery… all in unbelief that all might be treated equally. Grace and mercy for all. What a pathetic lot we are…
And then on the other hand Paul writes to the Corinthians…
1 Cor 2:16… “For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.”
…that we have the mind of Christ available to us that we might understand the depth, the riches of the manifold wisdom of God!
Eph 1:15-23… “Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.”
Paul is king of the run-on sentence, no… 🙂
What is the purpose of this “new creature”, the “church which is His body”?
Eph 3:9-11… “And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:”
That the fallen angels know their utter destruction. Not just from the earth (prophesy), but from their places in the heavens as well (mystery).
Col 2:15… “And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.”
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Bravo, GCP !
I’ve thrown some questions at you, and you have addressed each one as I have understood the Word, for the most part. I believe that God knows the beginning from the end, and that he loves mankind more than any of his other creations, for we were made in his image.
The ‘need’ to be aware of satan’s methods he is employing to circumvent God’s creation puts a blaring horn on ‘Noah’s Ark’…….meaning, I think the above referenced questions is what was going on in the days before the flood, and that information comes from the previously mentioned, and Biblically referred to as ‘authority’, Jasher and Enoch…….in Daniel 2, 43…”And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay”
annuit coeptis novus ordo seclorum- so, do you feel as if we are at odds with what the Word says?
If so, it would be from my position as to the ‘who was Paul writing to’ part. You say, the Jews; and I say you are EXACTLY right, and your position is scripturally sound !
I, on the other hand, see God’s omnipotence allows for the Word to be written to ALL, and that it reveals a much deeper mystery. Who was John writing to?
“For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world”? 1 Jo. 2:16
Your flock has a mighty fine shepherd !
Thank you for the very kind words brother! I try to answer questions with scripture and not opinion. I do believe Gods love for His creation is beyond anything we humans can imagine. In my GoD and DoG piece I tried to somehow put my finger to the pulse of that love using the analogy of the love I have for my dogs. I’m sure I fell far short but it was the best I could muster. Someday we will understand that love far more fully I am sure. Till then, we just do the best we can…
You ask… “so, do you feel as if we are at odds with what the Word says?”
I think the world is at odds with what the Word says because the world is at odds with God. As for us who are saved, we try to comprehend it as best we can. Paul tells us to study and Isaiah says:
Isaiah 28:9-10… “Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:”
In direct reference to Dan 2:43 I do not believe we saved are at odds with God. I believe that even today mankind is intentionally mingling themselves with the seed of fallen angels in their quest for immortality without God. Not to get too weird, but in the UFO phenomenon where people are abducted, there always seems to be some sort of medical and/or reproductive twist to a great number of the stories shared. It all points in this direction.
You write… “I, on the other hand, see God’s omnipotence allows for the Word to be written to ALL, and that it reveals a much deeper mystery. Who was John writing to?”
Certainly the entire Bible is given to us for our learning. I hope I have not caused you to believe I think otherwise. All of it is not for our direct participation is perhaps a more precise way of making my dispensational claim. So yes, the Word is written to any and all who would learn from it. While John was writing specifically to the Jewish believers, he writes truths that are “trans-dispensational” or truths about God or man that would be in agreement with the instructions Paul writes to believers today. Lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes and the pride of life goes right back to the beginning and will continue straight through till the end. It is the nature of fallen man in every dispensation. John himself however is not involved with the body of Christ, but with Israel’s earthly Kingdom program. This is critical to understand as John is under the new covenant law system. Paul and thus we, are not. We are under “grace and peace”… thank God!
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I stumbled on this video a couple hours ago. It is 30 min. long……it says, much more concisely, what I would ‘butcher’ with my attempt to do so in posts.
The link is://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpgSxuMputc
Titled (in case link doesn’t work) CRAZY-MUST SEE NOW! Entire Bible Explained Like a Boss-Truth of Nephilim, Anunnaki, and Bloodlines
If you have the time, I would like for you to check it out…..if you don’t, certainly no hard feelings !
annuit coeptis novus ordo seclorum- Somebody got mad at me at TBP; said give it a break (about this motto)……I it because it’s on the money, for cryin’ out loud; the money of a nation that refers to itself as “Christian”….while passing laws to kill babies to at birth……war mongering……LGBTQABCDF…now constitutionally protected….we both could go on and on….
I’ll watch that video for sure, thanks for posting! There are some very strong personalities and opinions at TBP but that’s what makes for usually very interesting reads. There is no such thing as “hate speech” there… people are free to speak their minds. I appreciate it because I am free to speak with scripture and Lord knows, most everyone there needs it badly. Unfortunate some get mad but that’s certainly not my or your intent. Ours is to engage and cause them to question their own beliefs about things most people don’t ordinarily think about. It’s not an easy task.
There are a few times in Paul’s writings where he gets downright sarcastic. It’s stunning when he does, as it is the Holy Spirit speaking through him.
1 Cor 4:10-13… “We are fools for Christ’s sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised. Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace; And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it: Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.”
As is usually the case, peoples “experience” tops what God wrote down in black and white. The messenger is mostly reviled. Most do not believe, can not believe, that the God who created heaven, earth and all things therein, could inspire and preserve a single book throughout time. Baffles me…
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You posted some videos on TBP about giants- I saw those years ago – but thanks anyway.
I’m not sure how much, if any at all, I will be back at TBP: especially after learning they are a bunch of deists. Then, on Sunday, they post the blasphemous thread with the picture saying “if you don’t sin, Jesus died for nothing”……..
annuit coeptis novus ordo seclorum- Apollyon, Osiris, Isis, Horus (the unholy trinity)…….they are all very real, and our government is looking to return to the golden age, where gods once again co-mingle with men !
“If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.” Rom. 12:18
Not sure if I’ll be back……but thanks anyway.
Sir ordo… it has been a very busy past few days. I’ve seen your comments and will respond in full later today.
I saw the thread you speak of and posted a note there. The vast majority of people on earth worship the god of their imaginations. They need the grace of the God of the King James Bible. There are few that present it clearly. We can use all the help we can get.
2 Timothy 2:24-26 KJB… “And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men , apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.”
Your presence there is valuable whether or not they know or appreciate it. Hope to see your continued input there!
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To the members of GCBC:
Do you know the treasure that you have in your Pastor? And the immeasurable riches he has bestowed upon you through his knowledge of the Word?
annuit coeptis novus ordo seclorum- “The Lord bless thee, and keep thee: The Lord make His face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee: The Lord lift up His countenance upon thee: And give thee peace”
Thank you again sir ordo. All the study and sharing is done that He might obtain the glory He so rightly deserves. See you on the platform that burns with need.
1 Cor 1:26:31… “For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.”
Rom 16:27… “To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.”
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Greetings once again,
If you see this, and have a chance, visit the ‘artificial intelligence…economic control’ article over at TBP;
I didn’t handle myself in the manner I should have, but I felt it was time to stick up for Jesus, and I did it to the great and powerful stuckey……..there may be a small window where you may offer a prayer…they will not accept it from a “hypocrite” like me. Your name has been mentioned, not ‘glowingly’, but not vehemently as is mine….
annuit coeptis novus ordo seclorum- ole’ stuckey is hurtin’, read and see what you think. The timing of a comment from DD appearing, the timing of me going back to see if I could bridge a path, the revealing of MY personal trials…..just another one of those “coincidences”? I don’t know, but I do know what I say is the Truth, whether they want to burn me at the stake or not !
You have surely been a blessing to me ! So that place ‘ain’t all bad’ !
That place is the Wild West of the internet… and that’s what makes it great and terrible at the same time. It is truly a free speech zone where you and I are free to proclaim that which we know to be true to a group of people who desperately need it… and they are free to say whatever it is they want to in response. At times we get good questions and thoughts in return. At other times we get Stucky. It is what it is brother Ordo.
As to how we handle ourselves; we ought not strive and bicker with people but we ought not back down from rightly divided Biblical truth either. Ever. Sometimes we are at our best… other times, not so much.
As “wild” as TBP can be, people say some strong things, I also see a great deal of forgiveness there. Folks can get nasty but they don’t seem to hold grudges. Strong opinions make for strong reactions make for strong relations. At least that is my takeaway.
Keep on keeping on. I got your back and I know you got mine 😁
I stopped in earlier today and listened to some music, left you a note..
I came back and poured over this article once again….about 7 or 8 months after the first reading.
From one of your responses here, I use the same verse:
Isaiah 28:9-10… “Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:”
I recently have requested our membership to be removed from the rolls of the Lutheran church. Membership which goes back on my maternal side about 150 yrs, and probably longer in the ‘vaterland’ of Germany. The initial reason for my visit this morning was to go thru this article again.
The pastor responded to my initial email request by saying, if he understood me right, I was renouncing my faith as proclaimed in Luther’s Small Catechism….haha..
I responded and simply told him “I am prepared to defend my faith with nothing more than a King James Bible” …..(they use a new translation of one or another. I even remember a period many yrs ago where ‘the Good News For Modern Man’ was considered, but I digress). His response was that he will present my letter to the elders on the 1st, and then on the 8th they would decide about “releasing” me from the rolls….he said he takes the request quite seriously (he should) and that the board would also
No matter, as they have sooo much ‘works’ related to salvation, it seems they are still greatly aligned with the Pope in a ‘universal’ faith…….’bout knocked me over, friend.
Glad this was still up !
annuit coeptis novus ordo seclorum
Greetings sir ordo! Odd, I don’t see your note on what I assume is the Brad Davis page; maybe try posting again. What an amazing musician he is and a tremendous friend as well! He’s coming to play at the Cocktail Creamery shop this Friday evening and I can’t wait! I did see this one. So your leaving the Lutheran church? No small step my friend. When I learned right division I had to cut ties with those who refuse truth as well. I just could no longer listen to false preaching. Amazing to me how so many “freedom loving” people actively choose the bondage of religion. This kills me, you write…
“His response was that he will present my letter to the elders on the 1st, and then on the 8th they would decide about “releasing” me from the rolls….”
They would decide about releasing you from the rolls??? I’ve got an idea as to where that roll should be shoved. This I love…
“I am prepared to defend my faith with nothing more than a King James Bible.”
What more does it take but a correct understanding of Gods word? Rightly divided.
2 Tim 3:16-17… “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.”
Come out from among them and be ye separate. Even though it sometimes hurts. We are the church. We are His ambassadors. We have the manifold wisdom of God at our fingertips. We need to share it.
grace and peace my brother…
edit: I found your other post… 🙂
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Fascinating exchange. Am glad I jumped over to read it. Wish all discussions could resolve so respectfully.
With grace and peace Maggie… 😊
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